An' the Gobble-uns 'at gits you ef you don't watch out!
The most important player the Warriors get in return is Harrington, who is the perfect 4-man for a Nellie team. One man's tweener is another man's gold. Meanwhile, Monta and Matt Barnes have been holding down the wing spots admirably, but S-Jax provides much needed depth, as the team is still waiting for J-Rich to get healthy. I personally never thought Jasikevicius would do much in the NBA, but he's got experience and a wet jumper, and that's not too bad for a throw-in. I don't really know what Powell gives you, but Nellie must like him since he had him in Dallas.
But, more notable is what the Pacers get out of this deal. As the suspensions handed down to Melo et al. so inexorably proved, the Brawl still casts a mighty shadow over the NBA, especially in Middle America, where the people have long memories and nothing to do. With this trade, Indiana finally rids itself of the man who so eagerly joined Artest in his fan-punching rampage and who infamously licked shots in a strip club parking lot. From the Warriors, the Pacers get two--well, I'll just come out and say it--they get two white guys. I hate to disabuse anyone of the notion that America is not a colorblind society, but there are certain places in this nation (and I posit that Indianapolis is one of them) where race still matters. Many fans there would rather pay to watch some hard-workers like Murphy and Dunleavy than some thugs with guns. Hey, you don't have to believe me if you don't want to.
posted by Brown Recluse, Esq. @ 1/17/2007 02:37:00 PM
49 comments
49 Comments:
Well, and I say this as a Warriors fan who is elated that we got rid of Murphy and Dunleavy, they'll also fit into the Carlisle system better than Harrington and S-Jax.
Maybe this is because Carlisle runs a "white" system. I don't know. Doesn't seem likely to me, since he was in Detroit first (although you could say that he got run out of town).
Yeah, that was exactly my reaction when I read about this trade too -- from a basketball perspective, how is this even remotely equal value for the Pacers? Can any of the readers out there in Darko-land can explain the Pacers motivations in terms other than what Recluse has spelled out?
I like the dude on the IndyStar boards who clamors to get rid of Jay-O and bring back Austin Croshere. Ugh. I'm a Hoosier but that's flat-out embarrassing.
EZ--there are definitely basketball reasons for this trade, and i'm not saying this was only about appeasing the heartland fans, but getting rid of s-jax for some solid citizens (being white helps, but really any squeaky clean player would have done fine) was definitely a major goal of the pacers. and getting rid of bad contracts was a goal for the warriors.
murphy should allow o'neal to play more as a power forward, which he wanted, and dunleavy is a more natural 3 than harrington. diogu could still be a decent player, but his game doesn't work on a running squad. he's a halfcourt player.
so, there ARE basketball reasons for this trade, but there are some notable non-basketball reasons, too.
In terms of actual basketball value, the key for the Pacers is Ike. They're gambling that he'll pan out.
Otherwise, it's a half-court team making a trade with a running team to get players who "fit" with the philosophy of each team. Whether these philosophies are inherently racialized is The Elephant in the Room.
i really don't think playing styles are inherently racialized. the pat riley knicks were pretty "black," but they personified that grind it out style. the suns run, and they're not exactly the "blackest" team in the league.
anyway, i just wanted to point out that i added that message board link as an afterthought in case anyone wanted to say indy's fans weren't like that. it took one google search to stumble upon that thread, and since i put up this post, there have been some amazing additions to it.
recluse -> anecdotes != data
Obviously there're quite a few racist basketball fans in indy, and yes the state has a checkered past with the KKK. HOWEVER, I highly doubt that white indy fans are more racist on average than white fans of any other team. My guess would be that they get more attention because it's one of the few places where basketball still crosses racial lines in a significant way and where a large portion of the white populace is still interested in the game.
BR, there's a black version of "grind-it-out" as well as a white version, no? I've seen some playground ball that is both very black and very grinding. Can't say that I've played it, but seen it played (while I cower on the perimeter).
Also, I'm still trying to parse out the proper number of negatives in "I hate to disabuse anyone of the notion that America is not a colorblind society".
I'd love to take Americans of all persuasions and ask them if they'd rather see their team lose than be thuggish in winning.
trouc -- obviously, you have me confused with silverbird 5000. i don't care about data. i just call it like i see it.
From the perspective of a lifelong Pacer fan, this is a screaming nightmare. I'll never forget where I was when I heard the news. This is blowback from the tragic events of 11/19.
It'd be hard not to whiff the lemony chemical-fresh scent of ethnic cleansing on this one -- two goofy white boys (with not-exactly stereotype transcending soft defense & fear of attacking the rim) & an African (no American suffix) to driven snow Indiana, while predominately black, urban Oakland picks up a couple black scorers (one perceived as loony & a "thug")-- so what's to made of these racial distinctions of character, style, and place?
It's true that a team's style may not be racially coded, but individual style sure seems to be (although race & class are hard to disentangle here). Dukie Dunleavy's game is as "white" as his privilaged upbringning and new state of employment.
To try to get to a point: Is the racial aspect of this trade limited to the demographic facts of the players and cities involved or are we in the territory of racially coded motives of individual style, potential legal infractions, fan base preferences, media depictions, etc.?
From the indy message board
You ready to become a season ticket holder again? The pacers will probably go to the finals now plus they got rid of the gun toting thug at least fans can feel safe again they don't have to worry about the big thug shooting them instead of signing autographs lol. We just need to trade JO to Dallas and get Croshere back maybe we can offer Damon Bailey a contract and cut that thug Tinsley since he just likes to smoke weed.
Attention thugs your not wanted in a pacer uniform the good classy fans of Indy have spoken.
Wow. Sounds like he basically wants an all white team. Croshere rather than O'Neal? Is that really a serious comment?
It's worth noting that Lil' Duns and Murphy's games aren't "white" enough for them to hit the open j or make his free throws, respectively.
In fact, Junior is much more athletic player than most people give him credit for. His problem is his mind, he's ridiculously passive for somebody with that much natural talent.
Does anyone else think this trade won't have any effect whatsoever on either team? The Pacers and Warriors were mediocre before they made this trade and they will continue to be mediocre afterwards. Despite some decent points about post-melee healing/indy racism and salary cap relief, I think both teams are essentially spinning their wheels.
They don't have to have every "white" skill set to be a couple of white ballers, hell they don't even necessarily have to be white (for the converse see White Chocolate circa 1999). It's MDJr's passivity more than anything that codes his game "white"...well, that and the look of unmitigated fear everytime he's matched up defensively with a stronger, more aggressive player.
As a Bay Area resident faced with the possibility of his killing cap space for years to come, I can't possibly express how good it is to see him gone.
Just to mop up some of the above misconceptions about the racial makeup of Indiana....
It's not as "white" or as "racist" as people might imagine. I don't have stats in front of me, but most of the urban centers (what few there are) have significantly large black populations. Wes Montgomery, Madame Walker, and Oscar Robertson--just to name three great Americans-- came from Indianapolis. As for racism, yes it's alive there (but it's everywhere really). All that said, the Pacers do seem to be applying the Crest Whitestrips with this deal.
I'm a Pacer fan and my only reaction to this was "meh". Maybe we can loose in the second round of the playoffs instead of the first.
The indy star board is embarrassing, but um guys, Indiana is white yes, but there are plenty of black people in Indianapolis....
This trade is definitely a pile of mediocrity. I don't see either team being much better because of it.
That said, if this trade means that the Warriors can hang onto Ellis and Biedrins, it's a great trade.
Anon- That indy message board post is clearly a joke. Damon Bailey?
How do we classify the Suns? Their best player is a Canadian. Then they have two guys who are foreign (Diaw and Barbosa). Once again the Suns are transcendent of the status quo.
Just my opinion, but I think Indiana wanted to free up time for Daniels and Granger. Sometimes the best players involved in a trade aren't literally in the trade -- they get more playing time as a result of the trade.
Has it really been just a year since GS refused to trade Ike in an Artest trade?
Just my opinion, but I think Indiana wanted to free up time for Daniels and Granger. Sometimes the best players involved in a trade aren't literally in the trade -- they get more playing time as a result of the trade.
Has it really been just a year since GS refused to trade Ike in an Artest trade?
I have lived in Indiana all my life until last year. I am insulted by this view of the state as some racialy charged place. I know live in south florida and see more racism here everyday, coming from every direction. Indiana is not free of all racism, and the farther south you go in the state near kentucky it may get worse, but it is pretty run of the mill and is a NORTHERN state. Most everyone on that Indy Star message board was obviously being sarcastic, if you can't tell that then your ingnorant. I have been a Pacer fan my whole life, and could you possibly tell me someone in Indiana who is more beloved than Reggie Miller? Except for maybe Bobby Knight. Who in their right mind wouldn't think that Stephen Jackson was a thug. Was it not noted that they also trades Sarunas away also? Last time I checked he was white. I haven't made enough sense of this trade yet to realize if it will make us a better team this season or not, although it will obviously make us better over the long run. I have always heard how great of a basketball site "freedarko" was but have only been on here a few times, I hope this post by this contributor is a rarity and doesn't represent the intellegence of the average post on Free Darko. What's next? "Larry Bird: Secret Member of the KKK"?
I (and many others I know who have firsthand experience) have always considered Indiana to be the most "South-like" of the northern states. For example, it's the only non-Confederate state where lots of people say "coke".
So while it's not the same as, say, Alabama (or south Fla), it does hold some distinction culturally. Which may be easier to see for an outsider than someone who grew up there.
first, this post probably isn't representative of the intelligence of an average post on freedarko. i'm the intellectual lightweight of the crew.
second, i never said indiana was a "racially charged place." i don't even know what that means. i would not characterize hoosiers as being racists, but i do think there are certain fanbases that would rather see white guys on the court than not. these fanbases also would rather NOT see tattoos, headbands, baggy shorts, and other things identified with "the hip-hop generation." reggie miller, despite the constant shit-talking, has a pretty clean image, and he took the pacers to the finals. of course indiana fans love him!
the fact that indiana is "run of the mill" and "NORTHERN" (your capitalization) is exactly the point. i'm not saying cats are getting lynched out there (although, as someone pointed out, the klan is pretty strong in indiana), but the demographics (yes, i know there are black people in indiana, but they're concentrated in the urban centers) allow for the kind of casual racism where upstanding citizens like al harrington and jermaine o'neal can be called "thugs" with a straight face, e.g., a lot of the people on that thread were NOT joking.
also, sarunas was not a major part of the deal, so it's irrelevant what race he is.
From a pure basketball standpoint, S-Jax might be one of the classic "addition by subtraction" kind of guys in the league. (Let's call it the Steve Francis all-stars) in that he's too talented not to get clock, but he's A) a ball-stopper on O; B) indifferent at times on D; C) inconsistent in his intensity. Oh yeah and D) FUCKING CRAZY. In my experience the scarier guys to play with against aren't the guys who overreact to everything, it's the "random reaction to external stimuli" guy who you don't really want around.
And how much do you really lose by giving Jackson's minutes to Granger and Daniels?
i think once you get in trouble for firing a gun outside a strip club, people should be allowed to call you a thug without being accused of racism.
also, and most importantly for indiana, one of those pushing hardest both privately and publicly for shipping out s-jax was jermaine o'neal. it's true that if you just compare the talent of those involved in the trade the pacers got fleeced (they gave up 3 of their top 5 for 1 and a maybe). but losing jo would set their franchise back 10 years.
if this is the price they need to pay to keep o'neal, then its worth it. (and that's not race, it's chemistry).
s-jax won a chip with the spurs, so he can play right. the pacers are just a mess right now, and they're not winning. i agree there needed to be a trade.
but, i also think that some of s-jax's craziness is a result of the way he's been perceived. he more than anyone else looked positively unhinged and crazed during the brawl, so i understand people saying he's a thug and he's crazy. but, it's like, some people often end up doing what people expect them to do. compare the s-jax with popovich and the s-jax everywhere else. i guess i'm just saying i don't think he's a cancer or a lost cause.
[i'm not going to look at these comments for the rest of the night, just letting you know.]
okay, pause for a second.
MINUTES FOR MARQUS
no team freeing up minutes for this perennial FD fave is too interested in bleaching up their rotation.
and people. . .MINUTES FOR MARQUIS. let that marinate.
At 6:12 PM, Trey said...
How do we classify the Suns?.
Obviously not as black. Most countries have a "public racial imaginary" which migrants are coded against, rather than being coded against the racial imaginary of the migrant's home country, and this leads to all sorts of interesting and difficult situations. Nash's white game is displaced from US-whiteness by his connection to soccer, but it's still identifiably white. Barbosa's game in not US-black, but is still pretty black. I think when Bill Simmons writes a love letter to your team's style, that's an indicator that it's not too black.
http://fiyastarter.com/fs-pages/fs-sports-simmonswatch3.html
compare the s-jax with popovich and the s-jax everywhere else.
Strikes me as the beta version of last year's Tim Thomas. You watched him then (and even occasionally now) and wondered why it was so hard for him to stick in the League. The most obvious answer is something not being quite right between the ears. So he managed to keep it together while under a notorious disciplinarian on a team with exceptional leadership (IIRC, that was the squad with Admiral, Avery, Steve Smith, etc...) and got a big contract out of it, and has been a head case pretty much ever since. If anything, the comparison is unfair to Tim Thomas...
Sometimes its fun for a white fan to see a white player do good in the NBA, since they are few and far between these days. Doesn't make them a bad person or a racist. How many black guys are huge Michael Vick fans and at times might have thought of him as one of the best qb's out there? Does that make black nfl fans racist?
Any comment about trading JO for Croshere is obviously a joke.
Damon Bailey currently coaches High School basketball at his alma matter, Bedford High School.
Jermaine O'neal punched some kid (who looked like turtle from entourage) in the face at full strength, yet I still don't think many Pacers fans consider him a thug. The fans that do want him traded cite factors such as the fact that he missed a combined 69 regular season games over the 2 previous seasons, the fact that he discusses publicly with the media how he doubts this team and his future with it, and the fact that he is still not putting up quite the numbers that a player of his supposed caliber and salary should be putting up.
You might forgive some Pacers fans for being a little wary of the thug factor after 2 ruined seasons thanks to Mr. Ron Artest, especially the '04-05 season when they were primed for another NBA Finals run in Reggie's last season.
OK... trying to make some sense of this insanity. The best upside I can come up with: Blue/Gold suits and their lawyers figure Jax is going to do time on the gun charge/parole violation. So they felt the need to get rid of him at any cost. This STILL doesn't justify bundling Saurus and Al.... does it? Even a broken Richardson in the bundle makes more sense than what we got.
I can see Nellie salivating over a tough players vs the Anemic Enigma that is Mike Dunleavy Jr. Nellie has also loved Big Stiffs over the years (Mokeski, Bruer, Sikma, Lister, Cummings, etc.) so for him to unload Murph is troubling.
Both GMs figure to be unloading salary and bad chemistry. But we inherited waaay too much salary--truly awful contracts! By comparison, did you see what we were paying our guys?!
It's bad when you find yourself hoping that is another trade dropping soon for some real talent, or this trade and season are utter garbage.
Ike better be worth it.
Going along with my "addition by subtraction" theme, you had to give GSW something so that they'd take S-Jax, which meant either Harrington or Granger, most likely. I think I hang on to Granger at this point. Yes, Al is better right now, but he's not getting any better, whereas Granger has a bucketload of that most revered of qualities (well, second most revered, behind Swag) - potential.
And, as Shoals notes, more time for Marquis...
And what is swag but potential that's been futurized?
As a longtime Dallas fan, I say to the Pacers fans: enjoy the prime of Marquis Daniels' career. I wished it was here.
1. I live in Wisconsin. Indiana has a reputation for being racist. It's just a reputation. Don't know if it's true. I lived in Cincinnati and definitley felt a huge racist vibe there, and Indaina was supposedly worse.
2. Larry Bird himself said that he played in black style.
3. Murphy and Dunleavy definitle play at the white end of the Bball style continuum and jackson and Hrrigton defintiely play at the black end. The continuumn is this: Hard work, sacrifice for the team---------------------creativity, individual excellence. We can't deny that different cultures have different values. Niether can we deny that both styles have their merits. The sweet spot, as it so often is, is in the middle of the continuum, where the three kings--Larry, Magic, and Jordan--operated.
4. The warriors (my home team. When I was a kid, all four of my sibling and I got a red white an blue ABA balls at an Oakland Oaks game featuring Rick Barry. They kicked around my house the next 15 years) unloaded a lot of salery.
5. I agree that we will see a lot more of Marquis Danniels and that this will be a good thing.
You don't have to "posit" about Indianapolis or Indiana. Indiana is the state with the largest per capita membership of KKK-ers - and it's been that way for over a century. I'm sure both Jackson, Harrington, and Powell are happy to be gone from Indy.
I just had to chime in with the rest of the fans: Marquis Daniels is going to take this league by storm. By extension, this is the greatest trade of all time.
tinsley sucks, the pacers should start dunleavy at point guard so as to maximize their height.
As a resident Hoosier I would like to say that conflating rural Indiana (where racism is present but not overwhelming as has been implied) with Indianapolis, a city with a large Afro-American population and less race problems than, say, Chicago. And more Marquis is great, but who backs him up? Bring back Damon Bailey!
I hope I'm wrong because I did like what Marquis Daniels did for the Mavs last year, but I doubt he's going to take the league by storm. Of course his stats will rise with more playing time, but I think he's the kind of guy who can make a huge difference one night and none the next.
After reading hundreds of opinions on this trade I've come to the conclusion that this is really a case of teams trading their problems to each other rather than a blockbuster talent exchange. I'm a avid Warriors fan and we've been slogging through the dessert with the MurphLeavy contracts and dissapointing performances around our neck for too long. A lot of Warriors fans were ready to trade our marshmallow soft and white forward combo for a tuna sandwich so the fact that we got some solid and potentially very good talent in return is icing on the cake. You have to give something to get something, we parted with Ike. It looks like Indiana really needed to get out from under the SJax reputation and they gave up Al to make it happen. Neither team got a superstar but the major point of this trade is what both teams got RID of.
I still think that anybody who thinks Duns plays "white" has't watched the dude play basketball.
Seriously, that's not his skill set folks. If anything, he should be a slash-and-kick guy.
"i think once you get in trouble for firing a gun outside a strip club, people should be allowed to call you a thug without being accused of racism."
True enough, but on the other hand we've seen people support a man who gunned down a Japanese exchange student, yet we find an appropriate use of a gun for self-defense purposes (assuming the story is correct) "thuggish". I suppose that example could be more about location ('defending one's home' vs. being in a strip club parking lot a 2a.m.) than race (the first shooter white, with an Asian victim; Jackson and the other men black).
My spellchecker thinks Swag is potential that has been moisturized.
salt bagel, kentucky never seceded. look it ups.
i'm a native hoosier whose family has owned season tickets to the pacers since they were playing at the pepsi coliseum (the aba days). and i will say unequivocally that white appears to be right when it comes to the attitudes of indiana basketball fans.
larry bird gets deified while oscar robertson rarely gets a mention. granted, bird is much more a homebody than robertson. damon bailey and steve alford weigh more heavily on the minds of armchair indiana basketball historians than the big o or geoge mcginnis. and get this--bailey and alford both get drafted by the pacers in later rounds and get cut in training camp. its all a big sham. glen robinson was a greater player than both of them, at all levels of the game. no one cares though.
watch hoosiers. an all white team from the country beats the black big city boys, no less one from gary, the most chocolate of chocolate cities.
mike davis.
martinsville high school was banned from having home games for a season because of racial taunts directed towards black players on the visiting bloomington north team in 1998.
anyone who does not think race factors heavily in the indiana basketball equation is out of their mind. EVEN in indianapolis, especially in the suburbs (where the more dominant high school teams reside).
Another native Hoosier here... the link to the Indy Star message board is straight up embarrassing. I apologize for the rude and ignorant remarks made on the board.
At the start of the 04-05 season, the Pacers looked poised to contend for another shot at the finals. Since that time, the team has arguably gone through the worst three year stretch in the history of the franchise. Reggie retiring without a ring, the melee, the Artest-saga, and now the cycle of mediocrity we seem to be stuck in. Its not hard to understand why our fan base is so frustrated, but its sad to see that frustration expressed as such stupid, racist comments on a message board for the rest of the world to see. Way to go, Pacers fans.
With all that said, I'm glad Bird and Walsh did something. I'm excited that they shook things up, and I hope this starts a new chapter for the team... I miss caring about the Pacers.
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