The Hippin' and the Hoppin'

For years, the Utah Jazz have been synonymous with the Right Way, parading an endless succession of Sloan-approved pick-and-rolls while prizing effort and hard work at the defensive end. So imagine my surprise last spring when the Jazz showed that they could run at the Warriors’ breakneck pace and actually win doing it. My basic assumptions about Utah were therefore thrown into contention. Were they actually exciting? Was their image now inconsistent with their style? And, if so, why would that inconsistency even matter?

It became clear during and after the Western finals that the Jazz remain well-established in Sloanball, but that Warriors series still lingers. The players on this team are talented and versatile enough to play both styles, which, due to the need for every team to develop an on-court philosophy, brings up an important question for the future of the franchise: to run, or not to run? Given that this post appears on this site, it should come as no surprise that I think they should run more often than they currently do. The fast pace of the conference semis revealed untold depths in many of the team’s most important players: Kirilenko relocated his swag, Deron handled Baron with equal parts brashness and savvy, and Boozer molded his physicality to a tempo that would theoretically deny it.

Tuesday night’s opener further validated these impressions; Kirilenko notched a once-customary 5x4, Deron shredded the Warriors for smooth jumpers and gorgeous assists to Ronnie Brewer around the basket, and Boozer once again controlled the paint in non-plodding fashion. But, while the Jazz seem perfectly comfortable playing that style, one can’t help but recognize it as the temporary solution it is. However fast they play in any moment, Sloan will always pull back for stretches, as if to remind everyone that he’s still in control. Imagine, the thinking goes, how effective the team would be if they actively tried to run.

At the same time, though, it’s hard to argue that Utah should have changed their ways in their other playoff series given the results. They did, after all, make the conference finals, and it’s hard to argue that a significant increase in wins would attend a change in style. Furthermore, Sloan likely isn’t the best coach for a running team, and he’s earned the right to choose when he retires to a life of yelling at kids from his porch.

However, changing styles would still be a worthwhile enterprise given Utah’s peculiar status in Salt Lake City. In a league almost uniformly characterized by mainstream observers as having an “urban” culture, the Jazz are one of the few franchises with a relatively clean image, an opinion no doubt colored by their city and fanbase. While that perception might keep Utah out of various State of the League screeds, it undoubtedly diminishes their sway in the free agent market, where players have control over their destinations. With the exception of the occasional Euro (e.g. Memo) or Alaskan (e.g. Boozer), all of Utah’s best players over the years have been drafted by the Jazz. (Hornacek is the obvious exception, but I suspect he was actually born an Alaskan Euro.) When it comes time to add an extra piece, they necessarily choose from limited options.

Playing a more exciting style has the potential to fix that problem. If Utah rebrands itself as a running team, they will instantly gain credibility with free agents looking to play in a system that lets them play freely. The Jazz would no longer have to wait around for a high draft pick and general luck to turn around their fortune in lean times. The franchise now plays the free agent game in shackles; another style might help even that playing field.

But there is still the issue of the Utah fans, an almost entirely white group who’ve (perhaps unfairly) regularly been called racists and xenophobes. Given that perception, there has to be some question as to whether the majority of Jazz aficionados would take kindly to a new style now that they’ve seen success by way of Sloan and his neverending screens. However, any fanbase – even if most of them have names like Todd – approves of winning in any form. Simply put, this current Jazz team will make the playoffs for the foreseeable future regardless of style, meaning that any philosophical shift would be greeted with love.

Team identity, then, carries negligible weight with a fanbase, a group that asks for little more than wins and forward progress. (There is obviously some pride that comes with pulling for an exciting team, but it’s not like fans can’t create elaborate justifications for less thrilling play. In fact, maybe that’s how we got the Right Way in the first place.) Identities, at least as they pertain to perception and not on-court cohesion, serve as advertisements for interested players – they reassure that an individual’s relationship to the franchise will not change overnight. Money obviously plays a big role in free agency, but every legitimate player (let the Brian Cardinals of the world take what they can get) picks a team with which he feels comfortable. Using this model, we can see how Indiana’s recent foray into coach-focused promotion falls flat. In thinking that fans will easily swallow a high-lottery season because the coach truly madly deeply loves basketball, the Pacers’ front office has told the group that most often create successful teams (the players) that they will be abandoned whenever shit gets bad.

The problem with identity’s role as a vessel of reassurance is that NBA teams regularly undergo sea changes with regards to personnel and staff, creating a climate in which players must adapt rapidly to their ever-changing situations. Any identity based on a system, then, necessarily sets itself up for long-term disappointment. Sure enough, if you look at the highest-profile franchises in the league, all of them have an identity worked around something unrelated to on-court style: the Knicks zero in on their place in basketball’s avowed Mecca, the Celtics have broadly defined tradition, the Lakers promote the glitz of Hollywood, and the Bulls simply remind everyone that Michael Jordan played for them. No matter what situations befall those franchises, they will always be identifiable.

Yet Utah’s hypothetical shift to a faster pace need not lead to nothing more than ephemeral relevance. If the Jazz currently appear to be a team of unwavering ideology, then a successful change of style would push them towards the other end of the identitarian spectrum: openness to other ideas and the ability to adapt to league trends. It obviously wouldn’t be an instant reversal, but it would start a necessary process at a time when the franchise’s situation allows it. This situation is one with which all non-cornerstone teams must eventually deal, and it is important that each lays claim to an identity that respects – and, in doing so, often circumvents – the general chaos of on-court activity.


At 10/31/2007 7:52 AM, Blogger T. said...

Nice first post Ty. I don't really have anything to add of a deeper nature right now, but one of my Mormon friends is indeed named Todd.

At 10/31/2007 8:27 AM, Blogger steve said...

denise? denise the piece?

At 10/31/2007 8:49 AM, Blogger Sherpa said...


As a Mormon who grew up in Utah, I couldn't help but smirking at this post. Pretty clever use of visuals.

At 10/31/2007 9:34 AM, Blogger evan said...

Enjoyed your first Ty.

I can't help but think that you may very well have it wrong when it comes to the blandness of the Jazz. Going back to Stockton/Malone, there were not too many teams built around such a combination of point guard and versatile power forward.

They spawned the Marbury (and Brandon)/KG, Parker/Duncan, sorta Livingston/Brand and unfortunately not Knight/Okafor.

They've since evolved and are probably what more teams would like to have as assets for a running game than Golden State's roster. Jazz have a decent amount of depth and size to match up against Dallas and San Antonio.

In fact, short of the veteran mercenary teams of recent years (my Heat, Lakers), previous teams and the current Spurs are mostly a product of drafting a signing a few free agent players that stick around. The only spot that's been populated by free agents is their rotating 2-guard spot of aging stars.

The Jazz have as good a chance as any team from the East in knocking the Spurs off. Sloan has to make the leap as much as any one player he coaches.

At 10/31/2007 9:43 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Last night's game had several moments that warmed the heart of this Jazz fan, with the atmosphere primed by the Warriors placing a poster of the Baron/AK dunk on every seat in the arena before the game.

So when Monta Ellis, egged on by the rapid crowd, tried to finish over Kirilenko on a fast break and had AK send the ball into the 10th row and Ellis onto his back, it was a pleasure to hear the Booner make the call on the broadcast: "Put that on a poster!"

And for an encore, Monta attempted a shameless flop while guarding Deron Williams at the top of the key, and was unceremoniously punished by a dagger 3 and a look of disdain from Williams.

At 10/31/2007 9:52 AM, Blogger Sparkles*_* said...

"Hornacek is the obvious exception, but I suspect he was actually born an Alaskan Euro."

Ha ha.

By the way, will the nickname "Horny" ever be topped?

At 10/31/2007 9:58 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A Simpson's quote for your first FD title?
You are the win sir, good stuff.

At 10/31/2007 11:17 AM, Anonymous neck of eackles said...

A side point: Certainly the Jazz-Warriors series can be broken down along some simple and somewhat plausible dichotomies: Oakland/Utah, FD/right-way, maybe even black/white. And I'm not going to debate that Utah's fan base could influence their style of play. But is it fair to assume those demographics directly lead to the pick and roll, halfcourt offense, etc? I can see some things they might rule out -- say, Steve Jack -- but isn't there a whole tradition of Midwestern colleges trying wacky schemes? The current example is Grinnell, I guess; I'd list others if I knew what I was talking about. In any case, it might be too simple and post-hoc to equate SLC with Sloan's joyless slog.

(Hornacek came in a trade, I think.)

In any case, a strong strong debut -- nice work.

At 10/31/2007 12:26 PM, Blogger Brock said...

When I play at the young-old-man league (not to be confused with NAMBLA) I know we all get more excited about a well-excecuted pick-and-roll than just about any other basketball play. Of course, none of us can dunk or shoot 40% from the 3pt line, and no one pays to watch us play (unless the useless sacrifice of time counts). That is just to say.

At 10/31/2007 12:40 PM, Blogger lost said...


I believe the premise is that a more cosmopolitan populace might have grown weary of watching the same action for decades on end. This implies that they lack the imagination to ask for anything else.

True or not, it permits that they may embrace a different scheme if properly presented, i.e. if associated with success.

At 10/31/2007 12:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Darkofan: Very good post, as the insightful comments of the writer on FD suggested would be the case.

Bryant was just fine last night.

The Commissioner initially weighed in on the Knick verdict, with devastating understatement: Knicks "not a model of intelligent managment".

The case is a vehicle for reform of the Knicks.

There is still talk of the Knick "appeal".

The Commissioner alluded to missed settlement opportunities ( "checkpoints where decisive action" would have ended the matter).

Another checkpoint would be the plaintff's attorney fee application ( as allowed under the Civil Rights laws) , which should be before the Trial Court soon, if not alreaady.

A fee of $3M to $4M is justificable on top of the verdict.

The plaintff has some redundant elements of compensatory damages which are compromisable.

The fee application is another place, or checkpoint, for prudent settlement,

before sending the case on to a panel of staid, Second Circuit Judges for their take, under legal concepts of toleration of a sexually "hostile work environment" , on a case where managment apparently accommodated a key employee conducting an assignation with a then intern from the trunk of his vehicle, at company business related outing.

The Commissioner may be offering the Knicks a chance to settle before appeal and avoid further sanction form his office.

The extreme facts will otherwise be permanently recounted in the Federal Reporter of appeals in what will become an oft cited precedent for the plaintff's bar on managerial liablity.

Enough for now: Saw that Darko M. is not happy with the Grizzlies.

At 10/31/2007 1:07 PM, Blogger MC Welk said...

"Sloan's joyless slog" could only come from "neck of eackles." There is merit to your point, Ty. Take Horny Alaskan Euro [LMAO], a hero in both PHX and SLC (and Iowa … shoulda played for Grinnell).

"No one wants to play in Utah," but why would they want to play in San Antonio, not exactly a cultural hotbed unless one is latino.

But, more precisely, why would they want to play in Phoenix? Is it the old people, the partying (white) college kids, or the golf courses? What makes SA superior to "the lake" as a free agent destination?

Aside from the LDS church formerly disallowing Lamanites from holding the priesthood it is nothing. SLC has hotter chicks per capita (although many of them may be pregnant). It is the style of play, although Phil Johnson is Mike D'Antoni in Sloan's clothing.

It could have been Grant Hill, but Boozer will get another cred-ible Dukie to come here (Maggette?, Dahntay Jones as the gateway?), and that will be the tipping point.

Good form, Ty.

At 10/31/2007 1:20 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

San Antonio = no state income tax

At 10/31/2007 1:37 PM, Anonymous iverson fan said...

I've always thought that Jerry Sloan and Bruce Pearl should team up as a the basketball equivalent of Starsky and Hutch.

Jerry Sloan is a pimp, plain and simple.

So is anybody going to just come out and say that Brandon Roy lost that game for the Blazers? Because he did. Martel finally made me smile. And Lamarcus is business as usual.

I liked the Oden pick but I cant help but think how good that team look with this lineup:


At 10/31/2007 1:47 PM, Blogger 800# said...

Hornacek was sent to Utah in exchange for Jeff Malone, a trade that ended up being so one sided that it felt like a free agent deal.

I posted here last year sometime that while I think the fanbase in Utah would be perfectly fine with a FreeDarko team (they loved the ABA Utah Stars), their owner Larry Miller (who grew up down the street from my Dad) is this side of xenophobic. He sees the team as his sandbox, maybe even moreso that Mark Cuban, and in Miller-town the best players are white, multi-ethnic, or hicks like Malone (note: while in many cultures multi-ethnic identities are seen as a threat to cultural continuity, the LDS vibe seems to be one of both religious AND ethnic assimilation that welcomes the gradual decay of difference). I think he's the dude who will put a monkey wrench into the works.
I loved the game last night though. Williams' brush off three was spectacular. Oh, and Ronnie Brewer looks like he's gonna hold on to that starting spot, doesn't he?

At 10/31/2007 2:33 PM, Anonymous Disciple of Clyde said...

"it’s not like fans can’t create elaborate justifications for less thrilling play."

See: Every fan of the '90s Knicks.

Could it be possible that Sloan is adopting the model Belichick uses in the NFL - a different scheme for every opponent?

The Jazz can run, or they can play the old Sloan style. They should probably do both, depending on whom they're playing.

So instead of "we'll do what we do, try and stop us" it's "we'll do what we have to do to best beat you, and we can do anything we want."

At 10/31/2007 2:54 PM, Blogger Ty Keenan said...

First, thanks to everyone who's responded and given kind words. There are a few things I want to respond to directly:

@evan: I don't think the Jazz have ever been monumentally bland, but the Stockton/Malone teams (particularly the later ones) settled for more jumpers than I would have liked. They were definitely influential, though, as you say. It's possible I exaggerated things for effect; I would certainly not be the first person to do so.

@neck of eackles: Those demographics definitely don't lead directly to the pick and roll, which was my point. Fanbases want to see winning teams before anything else. I'm not sure I agree with lost's point that anyone would grow weary of a particular style, but only if the team won consistently.

@MC Welk: When I said that a system can leads to ephemeral relevance, I didn't mean that those destinations aren't huge draws during that time. The Spurs have three championships; that's enough to bring in any Gollum and might eventually turn into a lasting image. The Suns are on the cusp and play a fun style; these are worthwhile things. (Maggette going to Utah would be huge and exactly the kind of move I'm talking about, by the way.)

@800#: Great points on Miller and LDS assimilation.

@Disciple of Clyde: I think the mid-90s Rockets might be the best example of a championship team that played whatever style came their way, but even they had a base style. There is and should be room for deviation, though. I think of it in a way similar to genre: there's no exact rubric that anyone follows, but each piece within the genre has identifiable characteristics.

At 10/31/2007 2:57 PM, Blogger goathair said...

Oh, and Ronnie Brewer looks like he's gonna hold on to that starting spot, doesn't he?

Or he'll fall in line with guys from seasons past like Flip Murray and J.R. Smith; shooting guards who started out like gangbusters then fall back to earth.

At 10/31/2007 3:47 PM, Blogger lost said...

Ty: I try draw a distinction between 'style' and 'action'. Apparently, an unclear distinction.

By my definition, action is what you do on the court, or what happens on the court by function of chaos. Style determines action, to a certain degree. Sloan's style brings about a high degree certainty that the action will be what he desires: the aforementioned 'joyless slog.'

I find it hard to imagine anyone wouldn't get bored of that. But I've never been to Utah.

At 10/31/2007 7:20 PM, Blogger Crucifictorious said...

So they snatch up the Plissken duo, but don't add them to their blogroll...who knew FD was so Mongolian-warlord-like?

Ty, good stuff, as always. But have you ever been to SLC? One blogger's opinion, but adding a running game won't be enough to entice most free agents to the town.

Then again, if Chris Webber can find a decent place to eat in Sacramento...

At 10/31/2007 9:18 PM, Anonymous paper tiger said...

not trying to threadjack, but holy fucking shit- espn is throwing stuart scott, bill walton, and steven a for their halftime show? they are actually trying to murder me with obnoxious. this is just preposterous. where's greg anthony's dainty crossed arms? legler's hairy eyeball?
this is terrible.

At 10/31/2007 10:58 PM, Anonymous aaron said...

@paper tiger:

I find Walton fascinating. He got rid of his stuttering problem, and then promptly developed a new and equally crippling speech impediment that only allows him to speak in hyperbole. Its completely absurd, but somehow still entertaining.

"Kobe Bryant is in the PERFECT situation with the Los Angeles Lakers". Really, Bill?

At 10/31/2007 11:47 PM, Anonymous Steve J said...

Portraying Utah and/or San Antonio as likeable is akin to knocking on doors and spreading the word of Brigham Young. In simpler terms, if Utah and/or San Antonio went 0-82 they would simply be boring-ass teams, a la the pre-KG Wolves. Pa-ho-nicks and Golden State, on the other hand, are enjoyable regardless of their W-L record.

At 11/01/2007 12:07 AM, Blogger MC Welk said...

Shoals, are you serious about your AOL post that "nipped" is racist toward Ming? Does that mean when I have a nip of brandy I should be drinking Sake instead? Isn't it racist to confuse the Japanese with the Chinese? I feel gypped. Sorry gypsies.

At 11/01/2007 12:29 AM, Blogger Bethlehem Shoals said...

i posted it as a favor to someone else. i don't think it's the end of the world, but it's a little weird.

At 11/01/2007 12:40 AM, Blogger goathair said...

I think I hate Damian Wilkins.

At 11/01/2007 1:13 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of all the box scores, the New Orleans starters really gave what I imagined.

Man was I rooting hard for Memphis though.

At 11/01/2007 2:17 AM, Blogger Anthony Wilson said...

Man, Utah OWNS G-State. It's crazy how much the game of basketball is all about matchups; G-State beats a 67-win Dallas team convincingly in the first round, then gets whacked by a 51-win Utah team just as convincingly in the very next round.

And am I the only person that has a problem with (or even realizes) that the Warriors have two nicknames? Think about it.

At 11/01/2007 1:52 PM, Anonymous cw said...

Sloan and Miller have a style and O'Conner acts accordingly. It doesn't really have anything to do with black and white--the current team is mostly black--it's more about getting guys who will play in the system and who won't get arrested every other weekend. Playing within the system means you run the plays, accept your roles and work really hard. AK is the only guy I can remember complaining about touches, which goes to show how well they pick guys for their system. They kept AK because they knew how good they could be if he accepted his role and did what he could do. And maybe they recognized that they weren't using him right.

But here's three points against changing styles. 1. SLC is never going to be a big draw to fancy free agents. 2. They have won a lot of games over the years with their system. They have returned to contention only 4 or 5 years after completely blowing it up, with 2 second tier free agents and good draft picks. They have proven they can win without the big free agents.

At 11/01/2007 3:22 PM, Blogger 800# said...

Ostertag had a huge contract, mouthed off quite a bit, and wasn't necessarily productive within the system. Percentage wise, yeah, the team is black, but the starting lineup is two white players, two multi-ethnic players, and a float between Brewer and Giricek. I'm willing to bet that it's the highest percentage of white starters in the NBA (someone's gonna research that for me, right?) You can attribute the values focus to whatever you like, but there still seems to be a tinge of xenophobia in their decisions, especially when you consider John Amaechi's writing about Sloan and the organization. Miller and Sloan's "style" then can't just informed by values, it is backed up by their quest for archetypes that seem to display those quality.
I'm not exactly sure what role AK has as part of the Jazz system, or even what role Okur has within a traditional Sloan scheme. I think it's a fundamentally different team than existed during the Stockton/Malone years. Yeah, they've been successful playing the pick and roll for twenty years, but just because LA runs the triangle doesn't mean they're going to win more championships. Point is, the personel are different, and even if they run concurrent styles (old school Sloan/modified Nellieball) rather than make a full on switch, that would still mark and improvement over ideological adherence to a system that may or may not fit the team.
My point, and I the point of Ty's post is that this is a team in flux, and that it's a team that is built around/responds to the LDS monoculture in pretty powerful way. That they can perform outside of the ideal of the system is awesome, and I think they have a chance to be even better as they utilize their athleticism, their outside shooting, and AK's outrageously long arms to a greater extent. I think they have the ability to sign big free agents, Boozer being a prime example, and I think they can sign folks like Maggette if they are able to show how this team can showcase individual talents.

At 11/01/2007 6:54 PM, Blogger Ty Keenan said...

What 800# said, plus this:

Yes, they have been successful building the team in this way. Does that mean they're not allowed to try other avenues? Why not open up their options so that they can get other players when the Euro/Alaskan well dries up? It's hard to find guys who can help you right away (or even within a few years) when you're picking in the 20s.

At 11/02/2007 3:56 AM, Anonymous db said...

Why not open up their options so that they can get other players when the Euro/Alaskan well dries up?

Nice first post Ty. But isn't the whole point of culture/style is that imaginable "options" are not really options? i.e. there is no formal reason that a woman cannot become president of the United States, but everyone knows it's not really an option.

Similarly, Utah cannot countenance a stereotypically "black" presence because it's just not politically acceptable to firstly the owner, and secondly the fan base, regardless of the number of wins. It's actually safer to bet on Euros as it's a growth demographic and Europe is the source of white culture, so even marginals like the mediterraneans with their influx of African blood over the centuries can somehow be made to seem less threatening.

At 11/02/2007 5:24 AM, Blogger Ty Keenan said...

I just don't believe that Utahans won't accept a winning team under any circumstances. (If I haven't convinced you of that, I'm not going to convince you of anything.) As long as the front office can convince everyone that it's the right move for the franchise right now (and I think that's an easy argument to make given the personnel) things will be fine. Plus, they root for black players now--these are not KKK members. I don't care how light Deron Williams's skin is; the dude is identifiable as black for a supposed racist (to quote "Fear of a Black Planet": "black man, white woman, white baby") and Jazz fans still love him. And it's not incredibly easy to explain him away as culturally white, the dude has many tattoos. Furthermore, are they booing Ronnie Brewer now? Will they ever if he continues to play well?

If I haven't convinced you of that, then I don't know what to tell you. The one problem here is Miller, as you mention, but I still think he's open to watching anyone jump around the gym so long as it's making him money. But that only becomes a problem when the team stops winning, and that's what this post was about: creating an image that can outlast victories. That's really difficult, certainly, and maybe it's not viable as a long term option unless the team's in a nice city or region. But that doesn't mean it's not worth trying.

I also think that image is a mutable construction like any other. Plenty of racists have pretended to be tolerant for the cameras. Similarly, teams can create brands that have nothing to do with their municipal cultures.

If that's too strong for you, try to think of it this way: the Jazz play with a stacked deck already because of where they're located, so why make things worse by using a style that a) doesn't suit the players best and b) just perpetuates the SLC stereotype?

If polls are right, we're very close to having a woman president. Unless you think people won't pull the trigger in the booth, and I guess that's legitimate until proven otherwise.

At 11/02/2007 6:44 AM, Blogger Ty Keenan said...

Shit, I was just reading over my last comment and realized I totally fucked up the PE line. Apologies.

At 11/02/2007 11:09 AM, Anonymous cw said...

I don't think I was saying that they shouldn't change their system, I think I was saying that they probably don't see the need to change their system, not to win more games and certainly not to attract "blacker" free agents. And that seems to be what we are talking about here, right. Real black men like to run? And I guess that's probably true to some degree, but is maybe an over generalization. And I guess I am saying they shouldn't change their system afterall, just because it's good to have different styles in the leauge. I like disciplned pick and roll, push it inside bball, just like I like princton-based ball and good running teams (the suns, for exaple are a good running team. The warriors are bad).

#800. In the Malone Stockton era you could make a case that race played a part in the players they had--I don't know if it would be true--but they had a pretty white team. But I don't think you can make a good case for that anymore. Look at who they drafted over the past 5 years. And calling Boozer and and Williams mixed becasue it fits your argument is kind of like involking the blood percentage rules of the old south: you are attributing certain personal qualities based on percentages of european and african blood.

And I disagree that the talent on this team is fundamentally different that the Malone/Stockton teams. Those teams ran when it worked. Those teams had great outside shooting in Honechek and Russell. In fact, Hornecheck was an amazing offensive player who could create and make all kinds of crazy shots, and who would do so when required. Look at some of the old playoff games.

I don't know if you have watched them much over the years or not, but to say that they play momon inspired ball is off. It's just reaching for a cliche. They play pretty standard basketball, pretty much like the Spurs or any other team. I think you and Ty are making to much of the location/mormon thing.

At 11/02/2007 12:53 PM, Blogger Ty Keenan said...

I did exaggerate the amount to which they're currently Right Way, but I do think they should open things up more. In arguing this point, I was actually trying to underplay the mormon/location thing (in anything but my pictures, at least); I really don't think it matters that they play in Utah in, to use a Shoals term, purely basketballular terms. The point was that the general perception is that they play that way because of their location (or that they have to, whatever you want to call it), and that's important.

I'm repeating myself, so this is probably the last comment I'll make here. Good discussion, thanks all, I'm insanely happy this first one worked out well.

At 4/13/2009 4:10 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...




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